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***Spyder*** · 12-15-2012, 01:19 AM

I know that you guys mean well, but you are approaching it completely wrong. Violent crime is DOWN in the US, as gun sales have gone UP. The FBI does these little studies that determine what effect an armed public has on society, and they have found that civilian gun ownership deters violent crimes.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr

You can't make something illegal and think that it will stop criminals. Criminals do not care about laws. Drugs are illegal over here, but that does not make them difficult to get. Criminals will have guns no matter how many laws you pass that make them illegal.

This is also worth mentioning...the last few attacks were committed in "gun free" zones. If we have armed Sky Marshals on our airlines, after the civilians have gone through extensive searches, metal detectors, etc...then every school in the country should have an ARMED resource officer that is there to protect the students from someone that can just walk in from the street.

MORE guns is the answer, not less.

***salvador*** · 12-15-2012, 01:39 AM

Anyone who has one of those fucked up AK-47 looking things needs to be locked up.

I hunted as a kid and I'm actually thinking about buying a pistol because I sincerely think there might be some social unrest coming, but those automatic rifles are too much for even the police to fight with. Totally insane from every angle.

***Fitz*** · 12-15-2012, 02:10 AM

Spyder Wrote:MORE guns is the answer, not less.

Good god, lol.

I don't know what's wrong with sitting and passing an exam for a license so you're allowed to own one.

***Spyder*** · 12-15-2012, 02:11 AM

salvador Wrote:Anyone who has one of those fucked up AK-47 looking things needs to be locked up.

I hunted as a kid and I'm actually thinking about buying a pistol because I sincerely think there might be some social unrest coming, but those automatic rifles are too much for even the police to fight with. Totally insane from every angle.

Fully automatic weapons haven't been legal to own/buy a new one since 1986...you can still get one, but it is a lengthy and expensive process. Here's the long of it: <div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Contrary to popular belief, fully automatic weapons are NOT illegal. They are however HIGHLY regulated. Full auto weapons have been regulated with three different pieces of legislation. The first was the National Firearms Act of 1934, then the Gun Control Act of 1968, and finally the Hughes Amendment in 1986. In essence, what these three laws have done is to say respectfully that fully automatic firearms must be taxed and regulated, cannot be imported from outside the United States, and can no longer manufacture and/or register new/existing full auto weapons with the federal government (BATFE).

In order to legally own one, you must first find one that you wish to buy. For it to be legal, it must have been made and registered with the BATFE prior to 19 May 1986. These are what are known as transferrable NFA or Class III items.

Your next step will be to negotiate a price with the buyer. Most buyers have their prices set pretty firm and the going rate for a M16 varies by condition and model (M16A1, A2, AR-15 conversion, etc). A brand new, unfired, factory Colt M16A2 is going to run you about $18,000+ while a used AR-15 conversion will run you about $9,500-$13,000+. You will just have to shop around and look for the best deal out there.

Once you find one and negotiate a price you will need to pay the seller. Depending on if you are buying the item from out of state or not, you may also need to find a local Class III FFL/SOT to handle the transfer. NFA/Class III items CANNOT be shipped or carried across state lines without the proper prior approved paperwork. If buying out of state, you would need to have it transferred to a local seller who would then transfer it to you. Once you have found a FFL/SOT if needed, you will need to pay the seller. Unlike with other firearms where you can often do installment payments for years or put it on a credit card, most NFA sellers want full funds up front although some are willing to work with you and do half now, half when the paperwork comes back. At best, you are looking at half up front before he will even start the paperwork.

Once the seller is satisfied with the payment plan and has his funds, he will begin the paperwork. This requires a little bit of work on your end. You will need to get a few things in order for the process to be complete. You will need to get two sets of fingerprint cards done, two passport photos, and fill out a Form 4 (to include the signature of the CLEO of the area you live in) and write a check to the Department of the Treasury for the $200 transfer tax. It is this special tax that will allow you to legally own the weapon. Once you have all this together along with the required paperwork from the seller, you will ship it all to the BATFE who will then have one of their 10 or so inspectors sit down and review it. Any little error will cause it to be rejected and sent back. This is where the frustration begins as the wait starts. It generally takes anywhere from 50-90 days for them to process an application. The main thing that they will be doing is running an extensive background check on you through the FBI criminal database using all your information as well as your fingerprints.

Once the paperwork finally comes back, the seller can then legally ship/transfer the weapon to you. You CANNOT take posession of it before this time or it will be the same as being in possession of an unregistered machine gun which carries a stiff penalty in federal prison.

And that is all there is to it. Once you receive the tax stamp, always makes sure you keep a COPY with the weapon at all times no matter where it goes. Also, remember to keep the original in a SAFE place where nothing will happen to it as the BATFE does not replace lost, stolen, or destroyed tax stamps.

The above advice assumes you are buying in state. If buying out of state, the process is the same, except that you will be required to do two to three transfers. One from the seller to a Class III FFL/SOT if he is not already one, then one from the FFL/SOT in his state to an FFL/SOT in your state, and then from your local FFL/SOT to you. There is no wait time or transfer tax between FFL/SOT's. This means that you will basically only be waiting on the time it takes for two transfers if buying out of state.

If you want to be able tp purchase new full auto weapons, you will need to apply for a FFL/SOT permit from the BATFE. Getting one isn't really all that difficult, except that you need to deal in NFA items and not just buy them. If you only buy and don't sell, then the BATFE can get you on tax evasion. You must also get requests from law enforcement agencies or military units before purchasing them even with an FFL/SOT. This is because FFL/SOT is not exactly a free license to purchase full auto weapons. It merely means that you are an authorized dealer to provide them to law enforcement agencies. However, there is nothing that says you cannot take them out for some fun when not demoing them for the police.</div>

Anyway, that is a lot for anyone to go through for the sole purpose of committing a tremendously violent crime, when they could just modify any other type of weapon illegally. I guess car bombs are just faux pas these days...

***Spyder*** · 12-15-2012, 02:17 AM

Fitz Wrote:
Spyder Wrote:MORE guns is the answer, not less.
Good god, lol.

I don't know what's wrong with sitting and passing an exam for a license so you're allowed to own one.

That's fine. I have no problem learning how to properly operate a gun before I buy one...just like I did with my automobile...but you are fooling yourself if you think that is the answer. Just as there are MANY people driving cars without a license, there will be MANY people owning guns without one too.

Again, all that it would accomplish is that it would make it more difficult for the law abiding citizens to own a gun...not the evil-doers. Which, if that is your goal then just say it, but don't use a national tragedy as a guise to push your political interests.

***salvador*** · 12-15-2012, 02:31 AM

Then maybe the AK-47 looking things at the gun shows are "semi-automatic", but they were definitely selling them.

***Fitz*** · 12-15-2012, 03:10 AM

Spyder Wrote:That's fine. I have no problem learning how to properly operate a gun before I buy one...just like I did with my automobile...but you are fooling yourself if you think that is the answer. Just as there are MANY people driving cars without a license, there will be MANY people owning guns without one too.

Again, all that it would accomplish is that it would make it more difficult for the law abiding citizens to own a gun...not the evil-doers. Which, if that is your goal then just say it, but don't use a national tragedy as a guise to push your political interests.

Then why bother having laws for anything? Why bother having driving tests? Law abiding citizens will follow the road rules anyways, so why bother? Why bother having laws on dog fighting. Law abiding citizens will only get a dog for a companion. Why bother with anything? Because evil doer's aren't going to follow the law anyways.

How many more people aren't on the road driving cars because of license's? The question can be thrown back at you. Nobody is saying that it eliminates the problem completely, but it helps reduce or make things more difficult.

I was a lot younger at the time, but when Australia banned firearms in 1996 they had a time frame that allowed everyone to hand in there firearms, which the government paid them for.
Now, you need to sit an exam and get a license to own one where obviously you get a background check as well. There are different categories, so depending on the license you have, you're allowed certain guns and more powerful ones.
All guns you own are are registered by serial number to your name, so they have a record of every legal gun in Australia.

Makes a difference if a cop decides to pat a young teenage piece of shit down, and be able to charge him and confiscate the weapon on the spot. Don't see too many people carrying them around anymore, they would be more expensive and harder to obtain.

I'm not saying you personally, but your country seem to always be about 'me, me, me' and just worry about how things affect you personally.

***Spyder*** · 12-15-2012, 03:40 AM

Fitz Wrote:I'm not saying you personally, but your country seem to always be about 'me, me, me' and just worry about how things affect you personally.

Yes, because we have "individual" rights. The rights of every individual is protected by our constitution. That is an important caveat...EVERY individual has their natural rights protected. The Bill of Rights are the first Ten amendments to our Constitution, and they guarantee EVERY citizen the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They also limit the power and scope of government to protect those rights.

The reason that individual rights are protected is because it keeps the government or majority from isolating or infringing on the minority.

These rights are the very essence of what makes America the land of opportunity...they are also the same rights that come under attack anytime an opportunistic cocksucker tries to use a tragedy to promote their agenda.

James Madison was a very smart man.

***Maxy*** · 12-15-2012, 05:33 AM

I read a statistic yesterday and I'm not about to swear by it's legitimacy without doing some research but apparently, since Columbine there have been 31 of these type of incidents in America and 14 in the rest of the world combined. If those figures are remotely close to being correct I think it says it all really. There is a big problem in America.

And talk of having armed guards at schools? Shit, to me that's just fucked up. Take a look at yourselves man.

***lloyd mayflower*** · 12-15-2012, 07:36 AM

Warlord Wrote:
lloyd mayflower Wrote:Massacre in a primary school over there. Know how that feels after Dunblane. Ban the fuckin guns lads. Enough must surely now be enough

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/20734267
There was news here recently in Shanghai about an angry citizen who walked into a police station and stabbed 8 police officers to death with a kitchen knife. In a fucking police station! With a fucking kitchen knife.

A little earlier than that, there was a story about a dude who walked into a kindergarten and killed a bunch of little kids with, you guessed it, a kitchen knife.

Ban the fucking kitchen knives, lads. Enough must surely now be enough. You can tear your meat with your teeth. And when you decided to use stones or sharp sticks instead of knives, we'll ban those too. And when you use your fists, in the end, well, let's just ban those too.

Time to grow up, kids. Finding the root cause of these events will be more helpful than retard, knee-jerk political reactions.

My man, i could kill you with every club in my golf bag, i could hook you up to my 240 volt house supply, i could gas you or strangle you with a power cable. Thats not an arguement.

Fact is, sometimes the irresponsible few DO spoil it for the many. Thats the reason it takes me hours to get thru an airport these days. When you cant sen your kids to a batman movie, a shopping mall, or worst of all a fucking school wothout fear of them getting blasted, its time to admit that the minority has fucked it for the rest. A gunowner demanding his right to bear arms based on an old piece of paper for no real purpose is outweighed imo by the cpuntless families who have been destroyed over the years for no reason.

Let me ask you this. How would you guys react if 27 soldiers were killed in one go by one gunman in camp in afghanistan? Would it be time to get the boys out? I bet for many of you it would.

It might not be a popular viewpoint but i honestly hope that this is the final straw that leads someone to protect you from yourselves.

edit: this is how a civilised country tackles guns. Were not even talking firearms here, we're talking airguns. ironically this came from the scottish government yesterday. No outcry, no pissing and moaning about civil liberties.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...s-20720203