Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

***Warlord*** · 05-11-2016, 02:49 PM

(05-10-2016 04:03 PM)salvador Wrote: Generally speaking, I suppose I would define "doing good" as selflessly making the world a better place for others whether that is taking in a family who lost their home to foreclosure, or helping an old lady across the street, or volunteering at a food bank, or just being kind to people when they might not deserve your kindness.

But who told you those things were "good"?

I could just as well say that I thought having slaves was good. Who's to say I'm wrong? By what standard do leftists judge something to be "good" or "bad"?

Quote:I believe we are all born with a moral compass and that the bible is a great teaching instrument that helps to give clarity to that compass - in other words to reinforce what we already know in our hearts to be good and evil.

Again, where does that "moral compass" originate?

And you say that you believe the bible to be a "great teaching instrument"... except that you also say you're "afraid" of anyone who actually believes what they read in that bible.

Or should they just pick the bits they like and follow it, and skip the bits they don't?

Quote:I believe it is better to give than receive and I believe in the golden rule. I don't believe those things because the bible tells me they are true. I believe those things because I (like everyone else) have lived them. We are all sinners and we are all programmed to be selfish, and the church helps to remind us of the simple yet incredibly important truths in everyday life, like the Golden Rule.

So you believe in inherent goodness, and inherent sin? Where do you think those things come from?

By the way, being born "good" and being born with the ability to do good are two different things. Do you believe man to be an inherently good creature? That's one of the great philosophical divides between leftist atheists and conservative Christians, by the way.

Leftist atheists believe man is inherently good, though truly they have no standard to base such a claim on, while conservative Christians believe that man is inherently not good.

Quote:That said, I was never "born again" and I don't believe Moses parted the Red Sea and I have no idea what happens when you die. Culturally I, like most of the people I know, identify with the Christian culture because it was a big part of the foundation of my education and because I believe most of the basics of the bible.

And how do you determine which bits ("basics") you believe, and which are ridiculous pieces of shit to be justifiably dismissed by one, such as you, with an obviously superior intellect?

Quote:Regarding transgender people in women's bathrooms - I must be living in a bubble because I've never heard that it was a problem.

Try paying attention to the news sometime. Besides MSNBC, that is.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/univer...rdes-seleh

http://www.king5.com/news/man-womens-loc...e/65533111

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/...32041.html

http://theavtimes.com/2013/05/14/palmdal...-bathroom/

http://linkis.com/www.lifesitenews.com/12D80

http://wkrn.com/2016/04/07/man-charged-a...restrooms/

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/polic...rsity.html

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/...ple-inside

http://abc7chicago.com/news/photos-teach...y/1280811/

http://www.khq.com/story/31541886/colfax...-bathrooms

http://www.local10.com/news/man-arrested...t-bathroom

http://www.wtol.com/story/31539310/stude...22979815=1

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/02/10/ma.../21310769/

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Roo...48461.html

http://www.local10.com/news/another-vict...manors-man

http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2016/0...stroom.php

http://whotv.com/2016/03/03/man-admits-t...-50-times/

The only reason I won't post anymore links right now is because I'm tired of cutting and pasting them. If you want more, I will post them though. I'm rarely too tired to prove a point.

Quote:Warlord, I just answered your questions. So please tell me, do you believe Moses really parted the Red Sea?

I don't know, and believe me when I say I do not care. It is so infinitesimally small and unimportant a matter to me that I can't help but laugh that it is a question that really keeps you up at night, and fearful throughout the day.

(05-10-2016 09:31 PM)lloyd mayflower Wrote: You guys have given Sal a hard time for questioning the belief of some that a man parted a sea with the help of a higher being, yet you will flatly deny the rights of others to believe that they are of one gender born into the body of another???

I'm the only one here talking about dudes with dicks not being women, so why don't you just direct your post to me specifically?

Oh. Because I never said anything about Moses parting the Red Sea. Which leaves your point... flaccid.

Quote:Can't you see the double standards?

No, see above. But I'll go ahead and respond anyway.

First, it's not a question of "rights" or "one gender being born into the body of another." What a completely stupid, nonsensical statement.

Leftists can't claim to be the party of science and logic, and then turn around and embrace blatantly non-scientific ideologies.

You guys refer to people who don't believe in the myth of man-made climate change as "science deniers", but then with a straight face argue with all your limited might that a dude with a dick is a woman, so long as he feels like one. THAT is a fucking double standard, my friend.

XY chromosomes and male genitals make you a male. I'm sorry if that offends any butthurt bitchass leftists out there, but it's true. It's the fucking truth. Deal with it.

***lloyd mayflower*** · 05-11-2016, 03:29 PM

Na Warlord it was much more of a general point, and as i've said before, I won't ever be neatly packaged up as leftist, rightist or somewhere near the middley (Canelist) I simply take each issue on its merits and form my opinion. I was only observing that it seems hypocritical to me that faith in a higher being creating the world and doing all the undeniably next level shit God done, leads one to deny the possibilty that those chromosomes you mentioned dont have the potential for a crossed wire here or there?

I happen to agree with you, I think the whole thing is bullshit, however I can't prove or disprove and in all honesty, I would be amazed if the whole gender movement didn't come up with some science int he near future to back up the culture of gender confusion.

Men and women come together to create life, homosexuality IMO is a disease, and I say that on the basis that should it become more and more prevalent, it would lead to the end of human life. Thats not opinion, thats fact.

***salvador*** · (This post was last modified: 05-11-2016 07:10 PM by salvador.)

Warlord,

you asked me, incredulously, if I considered myself a Christian and I told you I did and gave a fairly detailed explanation. I would say the vast majority of Christians would understand that answer. A lot of them would disagree with me and say that I'm not a real christian, by definition, because I've never been able to make the leap of faith and accept that Jesus rose from the dead 3 days after being crucified. They would argue that the leap of faith is what differentiates a philosophy from a religion. I'm comfortable with that critique.

All I can tell you is that all the morality I learned in sunday school (compassion, tolerance, forgiveness ect.) is deeply ingrained on my psyche and I'm grateful for it even if I, as a natural born sinner, struggle to live by it.

Other than that, I'm not interested in getting into good and evil or any other discussions about religion because it is endless.

I know you need to label me a butt hurt atheist liberal because it makes it easier for you to then project onto me a bunch of negative stereotypes to fortify your arguments, but you have to understand that every time you do it just reinforces the idea that you get most of your thoughts from talk radio, where it's "us and them", with "them" being the libtards. I think the world is more grey than black and white.

***Spyder*** · 05-11-2016, 10:29 PM

Romulus9 · (This post was last modified: 05-13-2016 01:18 AM by Romulus9.)

(05-11-2016 06:21 PM)salvador Wrote: Warlord,

you asked me, incredulously, if I considered myself a Christian and I told you I did and gave a fairly detailed explanation. I would say the vast majority of Christians would understand that answer. A lot of them would disagree with me and say that I'm not a real christian, by definition, because I've never been able to make the leap of faith and accept that Jesus rose from the dead 3 days after being crucified. They would argue that the leap of faith is what differentiates a philosophy from a religion. I'm comfortable with that critique.

All I can tell you is that all the morality I learned in sunday school (compassion, tolerance, forgiveness ect.) is deeply ingrained on my psyche and I'm grateful for it even if I, as a natural born sinner, struggle to live by it.

Other than that, I'm not interested in getting into good and evil or any other discussions about religion because it is endless.

I know you need to label me a butt hurt atheist liberal because it makes it easier for you to then project onto me a bunch of negative stereotypes to fortify your arguments, but you have to understand that every time you do it just reinforces the idea that you get most of your thoughts from talk radio, where it's "us and them", with "them" being the libtards. I think the world is more grey than black and white.

I'm gonna need a flowchart to explain all the reasons why the Bible says that you're not actually a Christian just because you think Jesus was a cool dude that said and taught good things and was a nice example of doing good things a couple of steps above being a bell ringer for the Salvation Army, ironically during Christmas.

If you don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died on the cross for your sins and rose again three days later, and have given your life to Him and are ready to spend eternity in Heaven with Him.......... why in the world would you bother even calling yourself a Christian?

Actually, nevermind. Don't answer that. My hypertension is bad enough.

Warlord, it's all yours, sir.

P.S. -- When it comes to the sea, I believe Moses parted one... and I also believe Jesus walked on one... and that Peter did too, until he took his eyes off of the Lord. Literal event, bigger meaning. Just wanted to throw that in. Smile

***salvador*** · 05-13-2016, 05:56 AM

(05-13-2016 01:09 AM)Romulus9 Wrote: If you don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died on the cross for your sins and rose again three days later, and have given your life to Him and are ready to spend eternity in Heaven with Him.......... why in the world would you bother even calling yourself a Christian?

P.S. -- When it comes to the sea, I believe Moses parted one... and I also believe Jesus walked on one... and that Peter did too, until he took his eyes off of the Lord. Literal event, bigger meaning. Just wanted to throw that in.

I believe there is some kind of spirituality to the world that connects all humanity - and probably connects everything. For me, the Christian teachings (forgiveness, humility, generosity ect.) are as close to describing the best parts of that spiritual connection as anything I've found. Your flowchart is actually kind of a good way of thinking about it in that Christianity kind of lays out a moral roadmap without actually being the ultimate perfect answer to all my questions about that spirituality and the unknown.

It's an incredibly complicated topic for me, like for most people, because even though I don't buy into the entire religion, I do get something extremely positive from the teachings of Christ that is more spiritual than a simple morality lesson. It would be nice to believe that I was going to live forever in heaven if I just accepted Christ and acted a certain way, but even without that benefit I still get a lot out of the religion. I wish I had a better way of describing it, but I don't.

It makes sense to me that someone who believed that Moses parted the Red Sea would have an Israeli flag so prominently displayed. I spent more than a fair amount of time debating America's role in Israel and the conflict in general with Warlord. If I'd known he believed that Moses parted the Red Sea I would have realized that no amount of logic could ever move us closer to a common understanding on the subject because once somebody makes that leap of faith, the last 1300 years of history (or any other potential argument) would be insufficient to change any minds.

Religion has a way of making issues all or nothing, which is a terrible starting place if some kind of compromise is an end goal and it's one of the reasons why religion and politics are such a horrible and dangerous mix. And throughout history up to today, religion has been used as a means of amassing political power because it works.

I sincerely hate Ted Cruz because I don't believe there is one chance in a trillion that he believes Moses parted the Red Sea, but he does understand the political power he can wield if he can convince enough people that he does.

I thought the photo of Cruz as Adam the mime was funny, especially in light of the conversation about charisma and politics, but I'm also sure that in retrospect I was rubbing it in after he lost and that was unnecessarily provocative given how much Warlord was invested in his candidacy.

Mostly, I was flip about people who take the bible literally and I am sincerely sorry to anyone I offended. My condemnation of the "freaky bible beaters" comes from a deep frustration with the religious element in American politics in general, but particularly in the republican primaries where so many good candidates are given the choice to either pander to the religious right or lose.

***Fitz*** · 05-13-2016, 07:35 AM

What do you call someone that doesn't know/care and just goes by morals? I was raised as a christian, but don't know or really invest too much in religion. I believe in good deeds and being a good person, just the last 5 or so years I just feel like it's a waste of time in being emotionally invested in anything, I just believe in good morals and being a naturally good person. I get confused when people ask me in my beliefs or what religion I am, as I don't know what to say.
My grandma and auntie are very religious, and I even got a passage sent from my auntie today which was nice. My grandma asked me if I had a bible as well last week and I said I didn't have one. She said I should read it and she will get me one.
I just nod my head and smile. I'm not for or against it, I like the morals, but I just can't get emotionally invested in it.
I just like to be a good person and that is it.

I don't care, but what would I be defined as when religion is involved?

BTW, not saying I will never become invested into a religion, but in my point in life in the last 5 or so years, I just don't care or have an opinion.

***Warlord*** · 05-16-2016, 01:09 PM

(05-11-2016 06:21 PM)salvador Wrote: Warlord,

you asked me, incredulously, if I considered myself a Christian and I told you I did and gave a fairly detailed explanation. I would say the vast majority of Christians would understand that answer. A lot of them would disagree with me and say that I'm not a real christian, by definition, because I've never been able to make the leap of faith and accept that Jesus rose from the dead 3 days after being crucified. They would argue that the leap of faith is what differentiates a philosophy from a religion. I'm comfortable with that critique.

All I can tell you is that all the morality I learned in sunday school (compassion, tolerance, forgiveness ect.) is deeply ingrained on my psyche and I'm grateful for it even if I, as a natural born sinner, struggle to live by it.

It's this type of Orwellian doublethink that baffles me about people like you. You have an implicit belief in good and evil, morality, and sin, but use words like Christian, God, Jesus, and Bible as pejoratives. You accept and agree with the over-arching message of the gospels, but deny the implications behind it.

Quote:Other than that, I'm not interested in getting into good and evil or any other discussions about religion because it is endless.

I don't blame you. It's an argument you can't win. No heathen can. You either accept objective good and evil, or you get moral relativism. Once you accept objective good, you must also accept the standard it is judged by.

Quote:I know you need to label me a butt hurt atheist liberal because it makes it easier for you to then project onto me a bunch of negative stereotypes to fortify your arguments, but you have to understand that every time you do it just reinforces the idea that you get most of your thoughts from talk radio, where it's "us and them", with "them" being the libtards.

More doublethink, bud. I need to label you to fortify my argument, otherwise it... reinforces your label for me.

Please put the bong down. There's no one on this forum more militant than you with your labels of "freaky, filthy, unwashed bible beaters" who believe "Moses parted the red sea" and get all their information from "talk radio."

Quote:I think the world is more grey than black and white.

Spoken like a true libtard. Didn't you just get through claiming to be "culturally Christian", believing in objective good and evil, and thinking Christianity provides a sort of "moral roadmap?" I mean, seriously man, pick a fucking side. You can't have clearly defined rules of behavior and then revert to the typical libtard retort of, "Ho ho ho! Listen to how cultured and sophisticated I am, I don't believe in right or wrong or black and white, only shades of gray! Blah blah blah!"

Quote:I sincerely hate Ted Cruz because I don't believe there is one chance in a trillion that he believes Moses parted the Red Sea, but he does understand the political power he can wield if he can convince enough people that he does.

So you don't think Ted Cruz is a real Christian, or what? I'm not following your logic. You think he's only pretending to be a Christian to win votes? You post a picture of him from playing Adam in a high school play, but that somehow proves he isn't a Christian in your book?

I'm just really lost, man. This fucking doublethink is killing me. You call yourself a Christian, even though you don't believe in God, don't believe Jesus rose from the dead, and think Moses parting the Red Sea was a fairy tale. Am I following you so far?

Now Ted Cruz, who also claims to be Christian, you say isn't a real Christian, because...? You don't think he really believes Moses parted the Red Sea? You don't even believe in God and you call yourself a Christian! And now you want to make a completely baseless claim about Ted Cruz that you have no evidence of, and then attack him on that baseless claim (even though it would put him in complete agreement with you!!!!)

Fuck, man! I mean, FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

Good luck working through whatever emotional baggage you're carrying due to whatever daddy issues you've failed to come to grips with.

(05-13-2016 07:35 AM)Fitz Wrote: What do you call someone that doesn't know/care and just goes by morals?

Someone who hasn't spent enough time investigating where those morals ultimately originated.

Quote:I just like to be a good person and that is it.

How do you know what is good or not, though?

Quote:I don't care, but what would I be defined as when religion is involved.

A doubting Thomas, perhaps?

Quote:BTW, not saying I will never become invested into a religion, but in my point in life in the last 5 or so years, I just don't care or have an opinion.

Of course not. It's not fair, but most people only turn to God when they need something. When life is dark as shit, you'll instinctively call, "Oh God!", if not drop to your knees and pray. Let a situation go beyond your control (a sick loved one, for example) and you'll be amazed at how quick a man is to call on a God he had no time for before.

***salvador*** · (This post was last modified: 05-17-2016 04:02 AM by salvador.)

(05-16-2016 01:09 PM)Warlord Wrote: There's no one on this forum more militant than you with your labels of "freaky, filthy, unwashed bible beaters" who believe "Moses parted the red sea" and get all their information from "talk radio."

So you don't think Ted Cruz is a real Christian, or what? I'm not following your logic. You think he's only pretending to be a Christian to win votes? You post a picture of him from playing Adam in a high school play, but that somehow proves he isn't a Christian in your book?

I'm just really lost, man. This fucking doublethink is killing me. You call yourself a Christian, even though you don't believe in God, don't believe Jesus rose from the dead, and think Moses parting the Red Sea was a fairy tale. Am I following you so far?

When did I describe bible beaters as "filthy" or "unwashed"?

That is one of many examples of you projecting negative things onto me (or simply things you perceive to be negative like "watching MSNBC" - which is absurd) to fortify your arguments, which is why I find you so tedious.

The reason Moses parting the Red Sea is so important is because if you believe that that literally happened, then you believe God gave Israel to the Jews. And if you believe God gave Israel to the Jews, then no amount of logic (whether rational or not) could ever change your mind.

That leap of faith, which is so contrary to logic, wouldn't be such a big deal if the Israeli-Palestinian conflict didn't have the potential to start WW3. And unfortunately the last 1300 years did happen and most of the world wants to see compromise there because they believe it is fair and the right thing to do. It's hard to compromise when the Bible makes such a big deal out of it with such a huge miracle and so many people take it literally.

You and I have beaten this subject to death. It's distressing to think that it was all a waste of time from the beginning.

The reason I believe you get most of your talking points from talk radio is because you constantly try to define me within the libtard box and then tell me what that box is (MSNBC, atheist, big gov't spending) and then take your shots at me based on me being a libtard, which is talk radio 101/"How to Talk to a Liberal" kind of stuff.

The best example of this is the X-page debate we had because you believe it's impossible to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I have to believe that you heard some radio host go off on a rant on this and you ran with it - it's the only explanation I can come up with. It just sounds like talk radio to me because it's so irrational and "us and them" with the "libtards" being "them".

And the fact that you use the word "liberal" as a slam so frequently is very talk radioesque.

I want to shrink the deficit and I want gays to be able to get married and I want abortion to remain safe and legal. Most people would describe that thin definition of an agenda as fiscally conservative and socially liberal - you see it as a reason to dig in and fight about semantics - again, so fucking tedious.

I never said Cruz wasn't a real christian. I said that I don't believe that he believes Moses literally parted the Red Sea. I could, of course, be wrong. If I am and he really does believe Moses parted the Red Sea, then his calls to "stand unapologetically with Israel" and to move the US embassy to Jerusalem and to "carpet bomb ISIS" are even more terrifying.

What I do know about Ted Cruz is that he's a very smart politician who understands on a deep level the amount of power he can wield by convincing the evangelical community that he is one of them, which he has done successfully. Going forward he will be a very important voice in the republican party, which is what I've told you he wanted from the beginning.

I don't happen to believe there is some kind of omnipotent being who can just say "let there be light" and I don't believe Jonah spent 3 days inside a whale. But I do believe there is some kind of spiritual connection to the world and I believe the Good Samaritan is a profound story that teaches us what we should strive to be even if it never happened.

I understand that isn't enough for YOU to consider me a Christian, but I feel something spiritual and christianity is as close as I have come to finding answers. And I think it's safe to say that most people who call themselves christians are comfortable believing that certain parts of the bible are metaphorical rather than literal tales.

***lloyd mayflower*** · 05-16-2016, 05:34 PM

Warlord, your replies on religion are generally much more researched and thought out than I am ever likely to acheive, however, your reply to Fitz is wide of the mark. I was never brought up with any sort of religious persuasion by my parents. I am however, a good person with good values who believes strongly in treating others as I wish to be treated.

I have no intention of reading someones elses version of Jesus/God etc. Fact of the matter is, there is no evidence (what I consider as evidence at least) pointing to the existence of a higher being. Despite all of this, I firmly believe in the existence of something outwith what we can see/feel. Whether thats afterlife, aliens or WTF it is I dont know.

I will not accept that I owe my personal standards to the written word on which some people chose to base their spiritual beliefs. I do not care for organised religion because my personal belief is that it is inherently self serving and has been since its creation. My spirituality or lack thereof is mine alone. My minds ability to comprehend my own part in the universe and the infinite nature of said universe is unique and no one elses brain processes that idea the same way as me, or you, or anyone else.

You seem to deride atheists a lot for ramming their ideas down eveyones throat, yet you seem incapable of accepting a view differnt than Christianity as told in the bible.

I actually have a reference to God tattoo'd on my back. I believe in a higher power and I dont feel it is inappropriate in its context..... but I have no place for how someone else thinks it all went down, I don't believe God performed all these earth shattering miracles all that time ago then just stopped doing it, stopped speaking through men like Moses or Noah and showing himself through acts that defy all science and logic. I believe those stories are written by someone who wished to convey a lesson in the way they believed we should behave, and to be quite honest, i'm able to do that for myself.