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The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
03-23-2017, 04:25 AM
Post: #211
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
(03-23-2017 01:57 AM)lloyd mayflower Wrote:  Haven't watched it mate. Not likely to either. People like Robinson are the reason why it's too easy for others to shoot down any sensible discussion on immigration etc as racism. The man and his EDL compadres are scum of the highest order and have no place on the political stage. He is simply a thug trying to dress himself up as something more.

The EDL certainly turned into something undesirable and something that Tommy Robinson ended up walking away from. You might see him purely as a thug but name me ONE THING about Islam migration into Great Britain and Europe that he has been incorrect about. One thing. I'll admit I have watched a ton of footage and interviews that Tommy Robinson has made and I am yet to hear anything racist come out of his mouth. He has serious concerns about the rise of Islamic culture and its effects in Great Britain and Europe and I for one agree with him. Does that make me racist as well? I happen to believe the goddawful events we are seeing playing out in Europe on an almost weekly cycle is more than adequate evidence to support my position.

I also agree with Spyder, you can't expect to enter into a debate about this if you can't be arsed looking at the evidence provided.

Me: 'Check out what Tommy Robinson has to say about what happened.'

You: 'Tommy Robinson is a cunt, he talks shit.'

Me: 'Yeah but what do you think about what he said?'

You: 'I haven't watched it.'

...............................................Seriously how can we have a debate about the merits of what Tommy Robinson said if you won't listen to what Tommy Robinson said?????????????? HuhHuhHuh

You are showing worrying signs of liberalism Lloyd lollol

“Shakespeare? I ain’t never hoid of him. He’s not in no ratings. I suppose he’s one of them foreign heavyweights. They’re all lousy. Sure as hell I’ll moider dat bum.”—Tony Galento
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03-23-2017, 09:57 AM
Post: #212
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
Thing is Ollie I know Robinson will say soundbites I agree with. These people always do. But we live in a democracy amd rather than attempt to make a difference (difficult I know) he took the path of least resistance, which is to stir up and unhelpful swarm of societies lowest rung, racist hooligan idiots and have them hang on his carefully chosen words.

Now as per the very start of this thread, I dont know what the answer is. I would be a rich man if I did because no fucker else does either. What I do know is that black balling an entire religion is not and will not be helpful. It is in fact, exactly what these cunts want. Because there is merit in the constant stream of people who say these people are not religious. They are psychotic murderers.

FWIW I do believe it is a worthwhile endeavour to cut the head off the snake in Syria despite how entrenched these people seem to be in Western civilisations already. But further to that, I am sick to death of simplistic nonsense like "just get rid of them all" or "we have to follow their rules over there so they should follow ours" etc etc. Its doesnt add any value to the debate and it encourages hate based on religion. Ironically the very thing we are trying to stamp out.
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03-23-2017, 01:47 PM
Post: #213
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
The rule of law is the only way to maintain a functional society. I would not consider that simplistic nonsense.

"And you got your own steez about you that I appreciate bro. I see it." - Snoop
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03-23-2017, 06:50 PM
Post: #214
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
(03-23-2017 09:57 AM)lloyd mayflower Wrote:  Thing is Ollie I know Robinson will say soundbites I agree with. These people always do. But we live in a democracy amd rather than attempt to make a difference (difficult I know) he took the path of least resistance, which is to stir up and unhelpful swarm of societies lowest rung, racist hooligan idiots and have them hang on his carefully chosen words.

Now as per the very start of this thread, I dont know what the answer is. I would be a rich man if I did because no fucker else does either. What I do know is that black balling an entire religion is not and will not be helpful. It is in fact, exactly what these cunts want. Because there is merit in the constant stream of people who say these people are not religious. They are psychotic murderers.

FWIW I do believe it is a worthwhile endeavour to cut the head off the snake in Syria despite how entrenched these people seem to be in Western civilisations already. But further to that, I am sick to death of simplistic nonsense like "just get rid of them all" or "we have to follow their rules over there so they should follow ours" etc etc. Its doesnt add any value to the debate and it encourages hate based on religion. Ironically the very thing we are trying to stamp out.

Wow, you know how much I like you mate but there is SO MUCH I disagree with in this post.

You casually dismiss assimilation like it has no value. The fact that so many Muslims arrive in secular or christian countries with zero intention of assimilation is part of the problem right from the get-go. Particularly the way a Muslim man regards the rights of women is massively problematic.

And the idea of 'well this is so difficult to solve I don't know what the solution is,' you talk about giving these cunts what they want. Well that is EXACTLY what they want. How do you make a start? Well like Trump is attempting to do right now, you slap a travel ban on 7 or 8 Muslim countries and make it permanent. You stop accepting refugees right now. You pour as much money as needed to bolster your borders. And the minute you find a single refugee or migrant breaking the law you deport them and their whole family, no quarter given. If you find any Muslim gangs roaming the streets attempting to implement Sharia law you lock them up for 10 years. No quarter given. Does this seem extreme to you? probably, but I am convinced and have been for some time that western values, Western democracy is at war with Islam. Time to take the gloves off.

Will they hate us as you speculate? Well I'm with Trump on this one, they can't hate us anymore than they do.

I have no problem blackballing an entire religion as it is a repugnant religion, odious in its intents.

“Shakespeare? I ain’t never hoid of him. He’s not in no ratings. I suppose he’s one of them foreign heavyweights. They’re all lousy. Sure as hell I’ll moider dat bum.”—Tony Galento
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03-23-2017, 06:52 PM (This post was last modified: 03-23-2017 07:17 PM by lloyd mayflower.)
Post: #215
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
Yeah you are correct Spyder. And rule of law can be, and is, respected by millions upon millions of Muslims who live in functional society. So what to do about the ones who are weak minded enough to be brainwashed into killing under the guise of religion. To the point they have no respect for their own life, let alone anyone elses. What to do.....

Bit of an edit here just trying to catch up on news as I am on nightshift.... So it appears this guy was born Adrian Elms, in Britain. Was a convert to Islam with nothing more than petty crime convictions. At some point he was radicalised to the extent that he wished to murder people. Knowing the extent of this sort of indoctrination that happens on the Internet, and the attack was carried out using items we all use everyday, the question becomes, is there ANYTHING that can be done to stop this kind of thing happening? Because lets be very honest here, whether you agree with its fundamentals or not, immigration curbs would have done precisely nothing to help here.

Ollie here is where I agree with you.

1) You come down hard on a refugee or migrant who commits ANY crime and revoke their right to be here.
2) You come down hard on any gang (of any description) who are intent on organised crime (Thats that these gangs are)

Yuo will never find any post by me disagreeing with these fundamentals because unlike the liberal box I sometimes get put in, I do not subscribe to the one or the other rhetoric of todays politics. I do not believe that certain liberal values are mutually exclusive with the strong rule of law.

However, as you see above, the man who carried out these attacks is proof of my point. Simply shouting out "ban them from coming here" is simplistic at best and would be ineffective
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03-23-2017, 07:21 PM
Post: #216
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
Eradication. You must make that faction a pariah to the rest of them, so much so that they eliminate it from the culture themselves. Until the "mainstream" Muslim community seeks to destroy the radicalism, they will be lumped in with them by the civilized world. Self-preservation is a strong motivator to rational people.

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03-23-2017, 07:31 PM
Post: #217
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
I agree with you there Spyder. The non-murdering bastard element of the muslim community must do more and be seen to do more. However, you realise with that comes the risk of alienating more people and causing more problems. Its a fucking tightrope no doubt.

Radicalisation in prisons is also a huge problem, people go in as petty criminals and come out as deranged murderers. This is another difficult problem to solve.
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03-23-2017, 07:39 PM
Post: #218
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
It should not be our problem to solve. I think that is where we diverge. We already have communities with high crime/murder rates. Why should we import someone else's?

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03-23-2017, 08:49 PM
Post: #219
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
We don't really diverge though Spyder because once again I agree with you. We have problem communitites here filled with white Christian Scots too that we need to sort out. However, as demonstrated, we are not neccesarily importing this problem. Once again, contrary to the neat ideology that goes with left v right, I believe we absolutely should be selective about who comes to our country. It's common sense. But how will a blanket ban on religion A B or C coming in help, when current trends seem to indicate that attackers are in the countries they attack already, and being radicalised to do so.
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03-24-2017, 03:08 AM
Post: #220
RE: The rise of radical Islam and its long term affects on Western society
(03-23-2017 06:52 PM)lloyd mayflower Wrote:  Yeah you are correct Spyder. And rule of law can be, and is, respected by millions upon millions of Muslims who live in functional society. So what to do about the ones who are weak minded enough to be brainwashed into killing under the guise of religion. To the point they have no respect for their own life, let alone anyone elses. What to do.....

Bit of an edit here just trying to catch up on news as I am on nightshift.... So it appears this guy was born Adrian Elms, in Britain. Was a convert to Islam with nothing more than petty crime convictions. At some point he was radicalised to the extent that he wished to murder people. Knowing the extent of this sort of indoctrination that happens on the Internet, and the attack was carried out using items we all use everyday, the question becomes, is there ANYTHING that can be done to stop this kind of thing happening? Because lets be very honest here, whether you agree with its fundamentals or not, immigration curbs would have done precisely nothing to help here.

Ollie here is where I agree with you.

1) You come down hard on a refugee or migrant who commits ANY crime and revoke their right to be here.
2) You come down hard on any gang (of any description) who are intent on organised crime (Thats that these gangs are)

Yuo will never find any post by me disagreeing with these fundamentals because unlike the liberal box I sometimes get put in, I do not subscribe to the one or the other rhetoric of todays politics. I do not believe that certain liberal values are mutually exclusive with the strong rule of law.

However, as you see above, the man who carried out these attacks is proof of my point. Simply shouting out "ban them from coming here" is simplistic at best and would be ineffective

Mate the reason you get put into a liberal box is because you are a leftist/progressive liberal. You might not categorize yourself as such but the reality is that in this thread and more so the Politics thread, every single one of your positions comes from the socialist left. I can't think of a single example of anything social/political we have discussed over the years where I could genuinely consider that your position is more centre right/conservative.

I know you like to say you consider each topic on it's merits but every topic that does get discussed your position always come from the Left of the political spectrum. Always. That's a liberal my friend.

Now I know I have suggested a few possible solutions to this current problem which you are quick dismiss saying 'that won't work.' Well how do we know? The fact is that Europe and GB have had 15-20 years of your liberal friends being in power and the results have been nothing short of disastrous. It's time for the centre-right to have a crack at these problems and I simply refuse to agree with you that's it's case of throwing our hands up and saying there is nothing we can do.

The answer is there is no silver bullet of course. It will take a whole raft of measures. If for instance we have a situation where it is found that a terror attack has been carried out by a Muslim who has been radicalized in a certain mosque, then shut the whole fucken mosque down. And lets start getting aggressive about deporting some of these clerics. I mean how long was Abu Hmaza allowed to stay in Britain for? Way way too long. he should have never been there in the first place.

Now as to Elms we are now finding out that, surprise surprise, he was radicalized in Saudi Arabia. When are we going to see governments start to unite and really put the heat on Saudi Arabia? I've been disappointed that trump hasn't shown more strength here as well. You target Syria, well I'm telling you the real genesis of the problem is Saudi Arabia, that is the root of all this fucken evil. Hilary and Blair are donkey deep with the royalty over there. So yeah, Elms is not quite as 'home grown' as you first thought.

MI5, who I think do a magnificent job, clearly let this one slip through the net. they need more resources, much more resources and I guess the biggest challenge will be finding/recruiting enough brave young Muslim agents who will be prepared to go undercover so they can start infiltrating these terror networks. This will take time.

And lastly when the fuck is the Muslim community going to stand up en masse and start condemning these actions? When are we going to see 10,000 Muslims march down Pall mall and say these atrocities are not being committed in their names? Instead you get the odd brave lone one who says something and gets death threats for their troubles. No the reason the majority don't say anything is because..........................as someone who is living in the UK Lloyd the answer should absolutely fucken terrify you.

“Shakespeare? I ain’t never hoid of him. He’s not in no ratings. I suppose he’s one of them foreign heavyweights. They’re all lousy. Sure as hell I’ll moider dat bum.”—Tony Galento
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