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Poll: Who wins on their best night?
Rocky Marciano
Sonny Liston
Joe Fraizer
Evander Holyfield
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HW Fantasy Tourney: Marciano-Liston-Fraizer-Holyfield
03-08-2019, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2019 08:38 AM by ViperSniper.)
Post: #1
HW Fantasy Tourney: Marciano-Liston-Fraizer-Holyfield
There isn't a bad match up between the 4 who have all shown their own toughness.

Marciano-Holyfield & Liston-Fraizer would be scary!!

If all duked it out at their best, how would these matchups unfold & who wins?
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03-08-2019, 06:31 PM
Post: #2
RE: HW Fantasy Tourney: Marciano-Liston-Fraizer-Holyfield
Marciano-Holyfield would be the marquee matchup. Whoever came out of that in one piece would be the hypothetical favorite.

P4P Marciano would be the favorite in my book, but barring that, he’d be terribly undersized, even against Evander.

That said, I might give him the slight edge over Holyfield, even with the size disadvantage. Evander’s advantages were actually being faster and more nimble than his heavyweight opponents, and landing on them at a higher rate. He was also a great counter puncher.

Against smaller opponents Evander never did seem to do as well. From Moorer to Czyz to Toney, he always seemed to get outworked and victimized by the exact same style he used to find success against bigger guys. In other words, Evander would get Holyfielded by the smaller guys.

Rocky with his cast iron chin, murderous punching power, and endless stamina I think would have eventually wore Evander down late. Evander was an excellent tactician, but he loved to war, and Rocky would have obliged Evander’s baser instincts and then drown him with them.

Frazier stops Liston within 8.

Frazier gets folded by Marciano, and so does Liston. Liston matches up the worst against any of the other 3. He couldn’t outslug, outbox, or outlast any of them, especially Rocky and Evander.

Warriors Don't Show Their Heart Until The Axe Reveals It.
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03-08-2019, 06:35 PM
Post: #3
RE: HW Fantasy Tourney: Marciano-Liston-Fraizer-Holyfield
For the record, I voted Marciano before reading Wars post... the title alone immediately made me think Rocc vs Holy. And I'd have to lean towards Marciano for all the reasons War already pointed out.

Thanks for Saving me the trouble.
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03-08-2019, 09:47 PM
Post: #4
RE: HW Fantasy Tourney: Marciano-Liston-Fraizer-Holyfield
(03-08-2019 06:35 PM)JONdaCON Wrote:  For the record, I voted Marciano before reading Wars post... the title alone immediately made me think Rocc vs Holy. And I'd have to lean towards Marciano for all the reasons War already pointed out.

Thanks for Saving me the trouble.

Haha, my pleasure. I didn't think anyone else but me would make that pick. I like Holyfield too. Maybe my favorite fighter of all time. But Rock's style would just be all wrong for him.

The other thing about Rocky is how unorthodox he was. I don't mean he was sloppy. That wasn't it. What I mean is how he would absolutely just melt guys with shots from ridiculous angles that more orthodox fighters would never throw. The shot he hit Ezzard Charles with in the 8th round of their rematch (the one that put him down the first time) is maybe the perfect example. Rocky throws his patent left hook, which Charles ducks. Marciano is off kilter because of his momentum, but immediately pivots, rotates, and blasts Charles with an overhand right that just absolutely crumples him.

In slow motion HD at 4:28 here:





It's the kind of punch only a killer who has no fear of retaliation would throw. That's the other thing that I think would haunt Evander. I remember my grandfather telling me about the Rock when I was a kid, and I just thought it was bullshit. He would say Rocky'd give you three if you gave him one. Then when I started studying the fights for myself later on, I understood exactly what he meant. Rocky was just fearless in a firefight.

The best example of that is the fight where he lifted the title off Walcott. In the 13th Marciano stalks Walcott to the ropes. Both men fire off right hooks. Both men land. One goes down, the other one goes home, new heavyweight champion of the world.





Rocky wants Walcott to throw. He even feints to initiate it. It's not because he thinks/knows he can beat Walcott to the punch (though he does do it.) It's because he knows he can land his if he can just get Walcott to fire off. He has absolutely no fear of what's incoming, because he has zero doubt he'll melt you with his shot, while yours won't do shit.

There are guys that would love a bulldozer like Marciano, especially your big, rangy fighters. Foreman, for example, could cut guys like that up. Evander couldn't. Evander would just stand in the pocket with guys like that all day long. That would almost certainly be his death-knell against someone like Marciano, who could not only match Evander, but outwork him.

Warriors Don't Show Their Heart Until The Axe Reveals It.
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03-08-2019, 10:09 PM
Post: #5
RE: HW Fantasy Tourney: Marciano-Liston-Fraizer-Holyfield
Both of those highlights were sicc. I love how he throws that final punch at Walcott... sweeping left hook while walking away from a lifeless Jersey Joe.
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03-09-2019, 11:13 AM
Post: #6
RE: HW Fantasy Tourney: Marciano-Liston-Fraizer-Holyfield
Rocky vs Holyfield to win it. It's hard to bet against Marciano but i don't know if he'd take it. He either does enough to win rounds consistently or Holy pulls it off by cutting him with that big ass bald head.
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03-09-2019, 12:23 PM
Post: #7
RE: HW Fantasy Tourney: Marciano-Liston-Fraizer-Holyfield
(03-09-2019 11:13 AM)Dickagon Wrote:  Rocky vs Holyfield to win it. It's hard to bet against Marciano but i don't know if he'd take it. He either does enough to win rounds consistently or Holy pulls it off by cutting him with that big ass bald head.

I don't think Holyfield survives a 15 round war with Marciano. Rocky was no Dwight Muhammad Qawi. If Holyfield did 15 with Rocky, he'd long for the days of "easy" fights against the likes of Qawi. (And the fight with Qawi was a fucking war.)

But I do agree with the headbutt argument. Using the head to cut guys up is common among Atlanta-based fighters. I know, because I'm from there. And Holyfield could absolutely cause trouble for Rocky with headbutts, maybe even getting a cheap TKO stoppage to boot. No argument at all from me there.

*Holyfield arguably beat Tyson both times with his head. He was a true master.

P.S. While we’re on the subject of Atlanta fighters and headbutts, Vernon Forrest was another master.

If you go back and watch his first fight with Mayorga, Ricardo goes back to his corner, and you can hear him talking to his corner. The translators said he remarked “damn, that black guy hits hard.”

That is not what Mayorga said. He actually said “that black guy’s hair is hard.”

Vernon used to put little metal bits in the twists in his hair. It was to rub guys’ faces raw during a fight, and cut them up later.

Warriors Don't Show Their Heart Until The Axe Reveals It.
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03-09-2019, 05:44 PM
Post: #8
RE: HW Fantasy Tourney: Marciano-Liston-Fraizer-Holyfield
I can't see Holy having enough in the tank for 15 rounds. I don't think any heavies except the big guys of the 2000s really giving Marciano a lot of trouble. Except for Wilder, he's trash.

I think prime Tyson was Marciano would be interesting. Tyson either lives up to the hype or folds and gasses out. Prime Joe Louis is another good match up.
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