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***the ollie reed fan club*** · 10-11-2012, 06:11 AM

ROLLDEEP Wrote:Enjoyed reading everyones posts so far.

Warlord, have you ever read CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity'? If you haven't, I defiantely recommend you take a look at it.

I think the way humans are 'hard wired' to believe and adhere to certain way of thinking and acting are very interesting.

Imagine you see a man drowning in a river, calling out for help. You'll feel two desires;

1. Run away and save yourself from being pulled in (due to the instinct for self presevation)
2. To help the man (due to your herd instinct)

You will also find inside you aside from these two impulses, a third feeling which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help the man and suppress the impulse to run away.

But the thing that that judges between the two instincts, that decides which one should be encouraged, cannot be itself either of them...that feeling, is our Moral Law, not herd instincts.

You probably want to run away and preserve your body and life more than you want to risk your life to help; but the moral law tells you to help him all the same.

In these moments, when we are most conscious of moral law, it usually tells us to side with the weaker of the two impulses.

Apart from maybe social acceptance, no one would chose risking death over being completely safe. But something inside us tells us to help.

Now if we're fighting over these two instincts and battling with ourselves to make one stronger, then clearly we're not acting from instinct. If we deliberately chose to make an 'instinct' stronger than it is, then it's not instinct. The thing that tells you that 'your herd instinct is asleep; wake up!', cannot itself be the herd instinct.

If life has been formed by accident, by chance, by fluke and just 'is', then there can be no right or wrong can there? There can only be the present and what's happening now that counts.

If life did evolve from a ball of gas that formed big rocky planets, and then we evolved from the rocky planets and life is just one big mistake, a chance happening, then who's to say what's right and what's wrong? We all think murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, ignoring a drowning man is wrong, but why?

To ANYONE interested in this thread, I've read the two following books and they've been great;

'Mere Christianity' by CS Lewis
'The Case for God' by Tim Keller

Wow! Great to see these topics evolving from the Politics thread and some really worthwhile contributions here.

OK Roll I have a question/challenge for you:

For this to work in it's purest sense, ie. we have (the human species) come from a higher power/creator that has instilled a hard wired morality in us, then you would by extension have to deny Darwinism and the Theory of Evolution in its entirety yes?

***Spyder*** · 10-11-2012, 09:21 AM

I have never understood why people use Darwinism as 'proof' that God does not exist. As if the creator of everything couldn't possibly create us to adapt...to persevere. How shortsighted would that creator have to be to not foresee future changes in its design? You'd have to assume that God is a bumbling idiot that could never predict (nor influence) future events to use that as a disqualifier.

I have to admit that I am challenged to fully understand Atheists. Their whole life revolves around the premise of finding a different explanation to the obvious. To challenge what others have realized...that life cannot exist by mere chance. It is impossible even by Darwin's own theory.

To that point, I ask this question. Explain reproduction.

A sperm fertilizes an egg, and the egg multiplies its cell. I think we can all agree to this. It is easily observable, and can be fully accepted as fact. Now how did this process begin? Darwin says that life evolves based off of outside stimuli. That cells learn what changes are needed to survive, and adapt to compensate. Once a sperm is shot, it is on a one way journey to fulfill its purpose. It encounters a few different hurdles in its path, but through its design it is able to accomplish this improbable task. It needs to be hardy enough to survive inside a foreign animal. It needs a method of propulsion to get from point A to point B. It needs to be able to recognize its destination once it gets there. It needs to know what genetic material is needed to complete the process. And it needs to chemically alter the egg to prevent anymore sperm from entering. Here's the kicker...it needs to know all of this stuff before it even starts its journey.

Explain to me how a sperm knew what changes needed to be made to its internal makeup to impregnate an egg. And how did it know to stop making changes when it found one that worked?

***Warlord*** · 10-11-2012, 09:43 AM

ROLLDEEP Wrote:Enjoyed reading everyones posts so far.

Warlord, have you ever read CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity'? If you haven't, I defiantely recommend you take a look at it.

I think the way humans are 'hard wired' to believe and adhere to certain way of thinking and acting are very interesting.

Imagine you see a man drowning in a river, calling out for help. You'll feel two desires;

1. Run away and save yourself from being pulled in (due to the instinct for self presevation)
2. To help the man (due to your herd instinct)

You will also find inside you aside from these two impulses, a third feeling which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help the man and suppress the impulse to run away.

But the thing that that judges between the two instincts, that decides which one should be encouraged, cannot be itself either of them...that feeling, is our Moral Law, not herd instincts.

You probably want to run away and preserve your body and life more than you want to risk your life to help; but the moral law tells you to help him all the same.

In these moments, when we are most conscious of moral law, it usually tells us to side with the weaker of the two impulses.

Apart from maybe social acceptance, no one would chose risking death over being completely safe. But something inside us tells us to help.

Now if we're fighting over these two instincts and battling with ourselves to make one stronger, then clearly we're not acting from instinct. If we deliberately chose to make an 'instinct' stronger than it is, then it's not instinct. The thing that tells you that 'your herd instinct is asleep; wake up!', cannot itself be the herd instinct.

If life has been formed by accident, by chance, by fluke and just 'is', then there can be no right or wrong can there? There can only be the present and what's happening now that counts.

If life did evolve from a ball of gas that formed big rocky planets, and then we evolved from the rocky planets and life is just one big mistake, a chance happening, then who's to say what's right and what's wrong? We all think murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, ignoring a drowning man is wrong, but why?

To ANYONE interested in this thread, I've read the two following books and they've been great;

'Mere Christianity' by CS Lewis
'The Case for God' by Tim Keller

Awesome stuff, buddy. I haven't read any of C.S. Lewis's non-fiction stuff yet. To be honest, I haven't read much at all of non-fiction, regardless of the topic it pertains to.

In my quest to find a deeper meaning to life I've read the Dhammapada (the core collection of Siddhartha Gautama's sayings), the Bible (The ESV and King James translations), the Qur'an, The Nag Hammadi Scriptures (a collection of gnostic gospels, I read the translations edited by James M. Robinson), some of the Dead Sea Scrolls (though not all), and next up is the Upanishads (been on my to-do list for awhile.)

Good post, though. This thread is full of win.

***SENTRAL*** · 10-11-2012, 10:03 AM

For me science debunks any and all religious beliefs. Religion is merely a tool used to brain wash vulnerable people.

***the ollie reed fan club*** · 10-11-2012, 03:12 PM

Spyder Wrote:I have never understood why people use Darwinism as 'proof' that God does not exist. As if the creator of everything couldn't possibly create us to adapt...to persevere. How shortsighted would that creator have to be to not foresee future changes in its design? You'd have to assume that God is a bumbling idiot that could never predict (nor influence) future events to use that as a disqualifier.

I have to admit that I am challenged to fully understand Atheists. Their whole life revolves around the premise of finding a different explanation to the obvious. To challenge what others have realized...that life cannot exist by mere chance. It is impossible even by Darwin's own theory.

To that point, I ask this question. Explain reproduction.

A sperm fertilizes an egg, and the egg multiplies its cell. I think we can all agree to this. It is easily observable, and can be fully accepted as fact. Now how did this process begin? Darwin says that life evolves based off of outside stimuli. That cells learn what changes are needed to survive, and adapt to compensate. Once a sperm is shot, it is on a one way journey to fulfill its purpose. It encounters a few different hurdles in its path, but through its design it is able to accomplish this improbable task. It needs to be hardy enough to survive inside a foreign animal. It needs a method of propulsion to get from point A to point B. It needs to be able to recognize its destination once it gets there. It needs to know what genetic material is needed to complete the process. And it needs to chemically alter the egg to prevent anymore sperm from entering. Here's the kicker...it needs to know all of this stuff before it even starts its journey.

Explain to me how a sperm knew what changes needed to be made to its internal makeup to impregnate an egg. And how did it know to stop making changes when it found one that worked?

See you see to be heading into the 'Intelligent Design' field, which comes back to my point previously.

As we become more scientifically advanced so Deism changes to accommodate the findings of the day. And yes there are parts of evolution that Darwin and science can still not explain, I believe the iris caused him all sorts of problems.

And this is where some Deists have conveniently popped up with their 'Intelligent Design' model.

Spyder let me flip the question around on you if I may. Just because there are parts of our evolution that science cannot cuurently explain does this automatically mean that there must be a God?

If that is the case I'd the burden of specific proof is all ahead of you. Darwinist's have a lot less to explain than Deists do.

***Spyder*** · 10-11-2012, 05:30 PM

the ollie reed fan club Wrote:
Spyder Wrote:I have never understood why people use Darwinism as 'proof' that God does not exist. As if the creator of everything couldn't possibly create us to adapt...to persevere. How shortsighted would that creator have to be to not foresee future changes in its design? You'd have to assume that God is a bumbling idiot that could never predict (nor influence) future events to use that as a disqualifier.

I have to admit that I am challenged to fully understand Atheists. Their whole life revolves around the premise of finding a different explanation to the obvious. To challenge what others have realized...that life cannot exist by mere chance. It is impossible even by Darwin's own theory.

To that point, I ask this question. Explain reproduction.

A sperm fertilizes an egg, and the egg multiplies its cell. I think we can all agree to this. It is easily observable, and can be fully accepted as fact. Now how did this process begin? Darwin says that life evolves based off of outside stimuli. That cells learn what changes are needed to survive, and adapt to compensate. Once a sperm is shot, it is on a one way journey to fulfill its purpose. It encounters a few different hurdles in its path, but through its design it is able to accomplish this improbable task. It needs to be hardy enough to survive inside a foreign animal. It needs a method of propulsion to get from point A to point B. It needs to be able to recognize its destination once it gets there. It needs to know what genetic material is needed to complete the process. And it needs to chemically alter the egg to prevent anymore sperm from entering. Here's the kicker...it needs to know all of this stuff before it even starts its journey.

Explain to me how a sperm knew what changes needed to be made to its internal makeup to impregnate an egg. And how did it know to stop making changes when it found one that worked?
See you see to be heading into the 'Intelligent Design' field, which comes back to my point previously.

As we become more scientifically advanced so Deism changes to accommodate the findings of the day. And yes there are parts of evolution that Darwin and science can still not explain, I believe the iris caused him all sorts of problems.

And this is where some Deists have conveniently popped up with their 'Intelligent Design' model.

Spyder let me flip the question around on you if I may. Just because there are parts of our evolution that science cannot cuurently explain does this automatically mean that there must be a God?

If that is the case I'd the burden of specific proof is all ahead of you. Darwinist's have a lot less to explain than Deists do.

Your questions are created for arguments sake rather than the search for validity. That is the difference, and the reason that they are fundamentally flawed. This is true for politics as well. Rather than accepting what is easily explained, you pose questions with no other answers...ones that take HUGE liberties and associates them with the truth.

The fact remains, that scientific theories are just that...theories. They might be dressed up pretty with fancy words, and consist of million dollar research projects...all paid for by the taxpayer I might add...but they are based on a hypothesis that in itself is biased, and supported by carefully selected findings that "prove" their validity. It is no different than any other self-fulfilling prophecy.

What you should be doing is asking yourself...what is the truth? Well that my friend can be found rather easily by using Occam's razor...among competing hypotheses, the one which makes the fewest assumptions should be selected. This is both scientifically valid, and in line with everything that makes the world go 'round.

So, do me a favor, rather than diverting my question to help save your argument...take a moment to truly think about it, and tell me how reproduction works without a creator.

***lloyd mayflower*** · 10-11-2012, 10:32 PM

I had a whole spiel written out here earlier on but then deleted it. I felt I was rambling. Such is the nature of a topic like this. So i'll try to simplify and ease myself in!

The idea of "higher powers" is one I have no issue with. Myself, I believe that in a universe as vast as ours, our world is not the be all and end all. There is something else. Whether it is a god in the sense that religions depict, well who knows. Every documented civilization that i'm aware of has had its god's, higher powers etc, so this is an idea that has been ingrained in the human psyche for 1000's of years.

However, the complete lack of any evidence for this makes it impossible to deride anyone who is quite willing to accept the reality as we KNOW it to be. All anyone KNOWS is that they were born and one day they will die. It seems to be good enough for the animals.

I must admit that as far as religions go, I have a real problem with them. I think that anyone who wants to believe has every right to do so, I just find it a bit naive that anyone truly believes in and lives their life by the contents of the Bible. I mean, we are talking about essentially a story, completely manufactured by humans, hundreds of years after the events it describes. In my opinion, organised religion is self serving, and over the years has basically been a corrupt tool of population control. Like I say, I have my own beliefs, but they are my own. I won't be dictated to by a religion based on stories which are no more tangible than Santa Claus or the easter bunny.

Looking for evidence of how the world was created seems like a futile task to me. I mean, like I said earlier, the Universe is vast, and IMO its completely incomprehensively vast. I dont believe anyone, including scientists really has the slightest idea about the origins of, or the true nature of our universe. I feel it is a concept too vast for the human brain. Even the really smart ones!

Spyder, that stuff about the sperm cell....Man you could fuck with your brain all night with shit like that. But it doesnt stop with nature, there are scientific explanations for why I can sit here and communicate with you, why I can watch tv, why more information than I can process in a lifetime can be stored on a tiny silicon chip, and the list goes on. Even though I know those things were man-made, I will never understand despite reading all the theory in the world, how those things were discovered and made to work.

The last thing i'll say for now, and this is one I know must be true. If there is a creator, he/she must be wondering what the fuck we did to their creation.

***ViperSniper*** · 10-11-2012, 10:36 PM

I used to 'beleive' in god but these days I have my doubts & I just don't know if there is or isnt a god(s) out there! I admit I have never followed any religion enough to know enough about them so some the following may or may not make sense..

It's like every religion is claiming their the 'one'. Well if that is the case then what happens to all of the poor people who 'chose' the wrong religion once everything is said & done? If there IS only one god, then why did he create a whole bunch of people who DON'T beleive in him?

The big bang theory seemed to have gotten my slight attention but as Warlord pointed out where did this gas & energy come from? Who created that?.. But then again who created god? What created the thing that created god? Did Adam & Eve ever have a childhood? Where does it end?

With humans, the world & technology evolving everyday I'm surprised noone has figured out how to walk on water yet! Or to make fish & bread to just appear? Some of the stories seem pretty fictional & out there, like it's from a childrens book..but it's not. As I get older I just find it hard to beleive some of 'those' stories. Coming back from the dead? Is that magic? Is that real?

The bible explains what God had done & created..yet doesn't really explain how & why god was created himself. So if I don't go to church, prey to statues, say grace & thank a god/man everysingle day of my life I will go to hell..& die? Because Im not convinced on a 'story' that this 'god' has written & told me to obey???

I respect everyones beleifs & even agree with several parts of different religions. I think they teach you alot about morals, respect & love which should really be universal. Just don't make me choose the right one when none of them can 'prove' anything to me. Just gotta have faith in yourself I guess!
:sweat:

***Spyder*** · 10-11-2012, 11:27 PM

lloyd, you made me smile when you said that you had no problem with a higher power. I couldn't fathom that the dude that I've grown to know was arrogant enough to believe that there is nothing greater than ourselves. That is some Floyd Mayweather level shit, and I KNEW that you didn't believe like that. lol

I'm also relieved by you saying that there are things that the human brain cannot understand. We are 100% in agreement with that. The ability to view all of mankind in its present state, and every state for eternity is WELL beyond our comprehension. If we could do that we could end all wars, and live in peace forever. But unfortunately the fact remains that this big blue ball keeps on spinning, and many keep trying to explain why.

I will not load down this topic with my own beliefs, but rather I will reinforce my desire that we all seek the truth. If the truth is right in front of us, then why do we continue to try and find an alternative? Why don't we just accept the truth and move on to things that we can control? Things that affect ALL of us? It's both a philosophical and religious question. I personally have always been more interested in the truth, and less interested in the means of finding it.

Viper, you are just starting your journey into self reflection, and there are many more questions that you will ask yourself.

***STEVENSKI*** · 10-11-2012, 11:31 PM

I learnt in rehab that there is such a thing as a higher power. My personal opinion is that this higher power who I choose to call god (for ease of explanation) that started it all. I am not egotistical enough to believe that this god formed humans in it's image. All I need to know is that there is a more powerful force in the universe & provided I live my life as a good life then that is plenty good enough for me.

I am also of the opinion that heaven & hell is right here on earth. If you have ever been an addict for any length of time I can assure you it is a living hell with each day being the same as the last. If you don't believe me go abuse benzos for 3 months & then stop cold turkey (which is the complete wrong thing to do & you should do a supervised taper plan unless your Dr is a unfeeling cunt). The physical withdrawals are so bad I cannot imagine a worse pain & I have had to withdraw from opiates which pales in comparison especially the long term effects. Balance that by being in love & having everything just going nicely in life where you feel a deep sense of contentment. Is that not heaven?