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***Warlord*** · 02-10-2016, 03:12 PM

(02-10-2016 01:18 PM)Snoop Wrote: my main argument is that regardless of roids or not, his resume isn't as stellar as people make it out to be when you really go back and dissect what was going on during the time of the match.

To be fair, almost no one's resume is as stellar as it looks on paper when you really go back and dissect what was going on during the time of the match.

Rocky Marciano is an obvious exception, as his resume is actually better than it first appears if one actually were to dig into it. But for every Rocky, there's probably 100 fighters of who the opposite is true.

Not taking sides here, you guys get back at it. Just pointing that bit out for discussion's sake.

***blackbelt2003*** · 02-10-2016, 03:19 PM

I think Floyd is another exception to the rule in that his career looks better and better when you study it.

I mean, the TKO 6 he scored over Margarito (awarded to him retrospectively after the Mosley win) now looks pretty special considering Pac could only outpoint him.

And the Paul Williams destruction (which he gets by way of Williams losing to Martinez and Martinez losing to Cotto) is another underrated victory.

Black

***BrutalBodyShots*** · (This post was last modified: 02-10-2016 04:14 PM by BrutalBodyShots.)

(02-10-2016 01:18 PM)Snoop Wrote: 1) Did the weight cut have an affect on DLH?

2) Did the catchweight affect Cotto?

3) Was Hatton unfocused?

Based on your response, it's a yes in all three categories, so it's an agreed fact that Pacquiao beat lesser versions of these fighters. I mean I guess it appears more impressive if people had predicted differently, but it's about focusing on the fact on who showed up in the ring the night of the fight.

Know what else had an affect on those fights? PACQUIAO.

You keep talking about the guy that "showed up" in the ring that night. Don't you think Pacquiao's performance in the ring had a lot to do with how they looked? There is no way to quantify how much a weight cut hurts a fighter. It obviously hurt a guy like Dawson immensely, then a guy like Glen Johnson returned to 168 which was a weight he hadn't made in a decade and stopped Allan Green. So does that mean that the weight cut didn't hurt Johnson, or does it mean that Green sucks? Does that mean the weight cut hurt Dawson, or was Ward just that good? To be redundant, it's all hindsight 20/20 BS.

It's almost like if DLH, Hatton, Cotto, etc actually fought competitive fights with Pacquiao you'd give Pacquiao MORE credit because that magically means he beat a "better version" of them in there. If Pacquiao had performed shitty those nights making the fights competitive and the other guys "look" better then he beat a better version? There is no realistic way to determine to what degree a fighter is performing less due to the opponent across the ring from them and what he's doing verses what "version" the fighter comes in the ring at. Therefore, you have to consider this BEFORE the fight. I may not have picked all of those guys to beat Pacquiao, but I certainly thought all of them would be competitive and I was wrong... so props to Pacquiao. When a catch weight was announced for Mayweather-Canelo, I deduced that the weight gain would severely hinder Canelo and picked Mayweather to win comfortably, which he did, and as a result that win to me wasn't nearly as impressive as had it been held at 154.

***Dickagon*** · (This post was last modified: 02-10-2016 07:06 PM by Dickagon.)

No, Floyd did nothing but make bullshit claims about Pac when he's scared to make that fight. His reasoning was that if he couldn't stop someone how could Pac do it, right? Floyd couldn't even knock his bitch out when he went to confront that ho with his bodyguards. Another thing is Floyd was actually on some shit and he wasn't stopping anyone. How could Pac turn into a beast and Floyd wouldn't?

People rank Cotto as a solid win for Floyd after Marg and Pac cuckolded him. Was he really better? He beat Foreman, Mayorga and Marg prior to that fight. Clottey might have been better than all 3 at the time. Pac won because he boxed circles around. CW, no CW or fight Golvokin if Pac beats you clause it's Pac's ring that night and Cotto wasn't going to beat him.

Pac didn't have to drain himself anymore. Another thing is Pac didn't eat huge punches or wreck guys. Nobody caught him with a good one from 140 to 154 except for JMM in the 4th fight. He used his speed, output and underrated defense to avoid shots. He didn't turn into Marciano. Another thing is his power didn't get a huge increase either, he only stopped Hatton. DLH quit, Cotto was outboxed and Marg took 1,000 punches to the same eye.

You can even question some of Marciano's wins. The real question is if you need to. Marciano couldn't control his era, he fought in it. People shit on Wlad too. As a man? Soft. As a figher? He fought everyone and accomplished a lot as a heavyweight. I don't remember Pac's retirements, reneging fights or choosing his refs and opponents gloves. Or saying he's a real fighter that doesn't need catchweights before taking a catchweight fight. I can't even remember Pac making a poll about who his next fight should be and passing on the selected opponent for an easier one. If Pac's career isn't quite as stellar as it appears on paper then Floyd's definitely isn't. But then who will ever make it to the top of the sport if everything is looked at through a microscope? Most of the athletes in this sport will become average.

***Snoop*** · (This post was last modified: 02-10-2016 09:50 PM by Snoop.)

(02-10-2016 06:49 PM)Dickagon Wrote: No, Floyd did nothing but make bullshit claims about Pac when he's scared to make that fight. His reasoning was that if he couldn't stop someone how could Pac do it, right? Floyd couldn't even knock his bitch out when he went to confront that ho with his bodyguards. Another thing is Floyd was actually on some shit and he wasn't stopping anyone. How could Pac turn into a beast and Floyd wouldn't?

Honestly, I think there was a lot of stuff in the legal contracts and negotiations that the public wasn't privy to as to why the match didn't come off earlier. I mean if you REALLY wanna dig that up, we can talk about drug tests, Pacquiao being afraid of needles (despite having taken blood tests a couple fight before), etc., etc. It's really a fucking mess. I'd rather not, because I'm not really interested in "who ducked who" in Mayweather vs. Pacquiao. Hell, you can have it if you want. I'm focused on whether or not Pacquiao is overrated. That's it.

Quote:People rank Cotto as a solid win for Floyd after Marg and Pac cuckolded him. Was he really better? He beat Foreman, Mayorga and Marg prior to that fight. Clottey might have been better than all 3 at the time. Pac won because he boxed circles around. CW, no CW or fight Golvokin if Pac beats you clause it's Pac's ring that night and Cotto wasn't going to beat him.

Again, I'm not here to argue about Floyd's record. If I had used Floyd's record to somehow discredit Pacquiao, then it would be relevant. But I didn't so it's kind of pointless to bring it up. I'm not saying Pacquiao is the ONLY guy that has a overhyped record. I'm saying his record is overhyped. That's it. I was under the impression that you guys were saying that it wasn't overhyped, which is why we've been debating this whole time. But if you're going to acknowledge that Pacquiao's accomplishments aren't really as great as people make it out to be, then we're all in agreement.

(02-10-2016 04:12 PM)BrutalBodyShots Wrote: Know what else had an affect on those fights? PACQUIAO.

Yeah never did I say Pacquiao had nothing to do with them. My question is if you feel those factors also played a part. If they did, then Pacquiao fought a lesser version of those fighters. That's it.

Quote:You keep talking about the guy that "showed up" in the ring that night. Don't you think Pacquiao's performance in the ring had a lot to do with how they looked? There is no way to quantify how much a weight cut hurts a fighter. It obviously hurt a guy like Dawson immensely, then a guy like Glen Johnson returned to 168 which was a weight he hadn't made in a decade and stopped Allan Green. So does that mean that the weight cut didn't hurt Johnson, or does it mean that Green sucks? Does that mean the weight cut hurt Dawson, or was Ward just that good? To be redundant, it's all hindsight 20/20 BS.

It's almost like if DLH, Hatton, Cotto, etc actually fought competitive fights with Pacquiao you'd give Pacquiao MORE credit because that magically means he beat a "better version" of them in there. If Pacquiao had performed shitty those nights making the fights competitive and the other guys "look" better then he beat a better version? There is no realistic way to determine to what degree a fighter is performing less due to the opponent across the ring from them and what he's doing verses what "version" the fighter comes in the ring at. Therefore, you have to consider this BEFORE the fight. I may not have picked all of those guys to beat Pacquiao, but I certainly thought all of them would be competitive and I was wrong... so props to Pacquiao. When a catch weight was announced for Mayweather-Canelo, I deduced that the weight gain would severely hinder Canelo and picked Mayweather to win comfortably, which he did, and as a result that win to me wasn't nearly as impressive as had it been held at 154.

No I would give Pacquiao more credit for DLH and Cotto if DLH showed up looking not like a drained zombie and if the Cotto bout wasn't set at a catchweight. How a fighter shows up in the ring, i.e. what sort of shape he is in, affects Pacquiao's performance because had that fighter shown up in different shape, Pacquiao may not have been able to get away with what he did in their fight. I see what you're getting at with the analogy, but what I'm trying to say is that the ambiguity is what taints the victory in the first place. I'll concede that neither you or I can determine how much of the fight outcome was determined by Pacquiao's skill or the opponent's shape, but it would have been much better had these not been issues and Pacquiao faced these guys in their top form.

In the case of Hatton and DLH, that wasn't Pacquiao's fault. He's not responsible for Hatton's training regime and he didn't set the weight for DLH; it's just unfortunate that he can't take full credit as to fighting the best versions of those two fighters. From Cotto on he started setting catchweights and other diva-like demands, which is when I started having a problem with him. But his diva-ness is a completely different issue from the legitimacy of his wins.

***the ollie reed fan club*** · 02-10-2016, 10:49 PM

Serious question Snoop, do you think ANY version of Cotto beats prime Pacquiao? I don't. The Filipino buzzsaw is all wrong for him.

***BrutalBodyShots*** · 02-10-2016, 11:27 PM

I think the weight drain hurt DLH far more than Cotto. DLH is an idiot for coming in as low as he did... I'll never understand that. Cotto however only cut 1 pound more than he came in for his previous fight so I don't think that was the end of the world. Cotto came out and won the first round against Pacquiao and to me didn't look lethargic or that the 1-2 pounds he cut had any visible physical effect on him. Pacquiao very quickly started landing shots that were too quick for Cotto to do anything about and as a result started winning the rounds big. While there is no way to quantify how much those 1-2 pounds hurt Cotto, IMO it wasn't nearly as significant as the man he shared the ring with that night.

***Dickagon*** · (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 12:15 AM by Dickagon.)

I don't really care. But if Floyd never mentioned Pac being on roids I doubt the suspicion would be there. That's relevant since people only started assuming it after Floyd made the claims and would talk about how Pac was walking through punches and banging dudes out. Neither claim is accurate. Plenty of dudes have been caught doping in this sport and none of them had that kind of transfomatiom.

What fighter really does have great accomplishments? You could look at BHop's career and come to the conclusion that he's overrated if you wanted to. Pac showed up and fought whoever he'd to fight, I'd say he's one of the better fighters of this era. It'd be easy to put Floyd at 1 and Pac at 2, it'd be easy to discredit both of them and give Wlad the 1 spot.

Ollie, 155 pound Cotto would still get beat. Pac was stepping around with his left like nothing. If Cotto had more offense he'd have just been caught with shots he didn't see coming. But to be honest Pac was an underrated boxer. He did pretty well at times against Floyd even with a bad shoulder and Floyd was easily the best boxer at the time. Bradley 1 was an underrated fight too. Bradley didn't have power and Pac really didn't go after him and overwhelm him he's patient and put no real effort into about a minute 30 of each round then for about 30 seconds Bradley would be completely outclassed in every conceivable way.

***Snoop*** · (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 11:17 AM by Snoop.)

(02-10-2016 10:49 PM)the ollie reed fan club Wrote: Serious question Snoop, do you think ANY version of Cotto beats prime Pacquiao? I don't. The Filipino buzzsaw is all wrong for him.

I think it would have certainly been more competitive, but Pacquiao asked for a catchweight, so nobody will ever really know.

(02-10-2016 11:27 PM)BrutalBodyShots Wrote: I think the weight drain hurt DLH far more than Cotto. DLH is an idiot for coming in as low as he did... I'll never understand that. Cotto however only cut 1 pound more than he came in for his previous fight so I don't think that was the end of the world. Cotto came out and won the first round against Pacquiao and to me didn't look lethargic or that the 1-2 pounds he cut had any visible physical effect on him. Pacquiao very quickly started landing shots that were too quick for Cotto to do anything about and as a result started winning the rounds big. While there is no way to quantify how much those 1-2 pounds hurt Cotto, IMO it wasn't nearly as significant as the man he shared the ring with that night.

That's fair. I don't necessarily agree, but it's a fair argument.

(02-11-2016 12:06 AM)Dickagon Wrote: I don't really care. But if Floyd never mentioned Pac being on roids I doubt the suspicion would be there. That's relevant since people only started assuming it after Floyd made the claims and would talk about how Pac was walking through punches and banging dudes out. Neither claim is accurate. Plenty of dudes have been caught doping in this sport and none of them had that kind of transfomatiom.

What fighter really does have great accomplishments? You could look at BHop's career and come to the conclusion that he's overrated if you wanted to. Pac showed up and fought whoever he'd to fight, I'd say he's one of the better fighters of this era. It'd be easy to put Floyd at 1 and Pac at 2, it'd be easy to discredit both of them and give Wlad the 1 spot.

I mean it sounds like the argument is that Pacquiao's overhypedness should be more acceptable because everyone else is overhyped in one way or another. I mean I guess so. I still think Pacquiao gets away with it more than other fighters for factors completely unrelated to his actual in-ring ability.

(02-09-2016 10:17 AM)Spyder Wrote:

Suspicious as hell...

You goddamn right it is, MAB.

***the ollie reed fan club*** · 02-11-2016, 05:34 PM

Honestly Snoop you really let your (self-admitted) anti-Pacquiao bias come out with comments like that.

You've watched a ton of hours of this sport, you know the technical aspects and you know what a fighters strengths and weaknesses are. And you've watched a ton of Manny and Cotto fights and you still 'don't know?' C'mon dude, Manny's style is all wrong for Cotto. A quick handed, high volume pressure fighter is about a bad a match-up for Cotto as can be made. Then there is the mental aspect. If you wanted to beat a prime Pacquiao you had to be prepared to go to a whole other level, almost spiritual. You had to be prepared to walk through fire to get the job done. Morales had that the first fight but was done after and we know about how tough Marquez is mentally. Cotto while being a tough mother fucker has never shown that TYPE of fire in his career.

The reality is, as Gravy pointed out, at pretty much any weight Manny has Cotto's number and I'm really really surprised you can't see that, but after all I guess it doesn't suit the narrative of your anti-Pacquiao stance to admit that Manny is all wrong for Cotto.