Ricardo Mayorga-Floyd Mayweather @ Welterweight.

[TheTeddyBear]

in the 80's Floyd loses to the Hawk baby!

[blackbelt2003]

(09-24-2014 08:13 AM)and the NEW Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 06:15 PM)blackbelt2003 Wrote:  Prime Shane would have destroyed Floyd. The old Shane was one punch away from taking him out in that 2nd round...the Mosley who threw bombs at DLH for twelve rounds would have finished it there and then in the 2nd.

The Shane that went at DLH for 12 rounds didn't hit nearly as hard as the older Shane though (nor the one that fought DLH in the rematch). But I agree, his style was all wrong for Floyd. That overhand right would have landed and he had a long, fast jab. Plus he could work the body and his speed would be very very hard to time.

A prime Oscar would have been troubles for Floyd too, his jab was second to only probably Thomas Hearns at welter. And his combination punching was something else, not to mention he was a very very underrated boxer himself, having a great sense of distance and counter-punching, even though most looked at him like more of a puncher because of his lightweight days.

Trinidad vs Floyd would have been interesting. I think that sneaky, straight right of Tito would have caused Floyd more problems than the left hook. I have absolutely no idea how that fight turns out.

Forrest, I always thought he had an overrated jab. It was sloppy and came down after he threw it. Plus he hated the pressure. He had a style to really disrupt some fighters (perhaps Floyd included) but to lose to Mayorga was horrible and Quartey showed that despite them both being past their best, the pressure really was his archilles heal.

Quartey was a bit too one dimensional and not elite at any element of the game. Vargas showed how to beat him with pressure and Oscar (albeit barely) showed that you could outbox him. Even Oba Carr gave him all he could handle (although Carr was no slouch). I think Floyd finds a way to get the job done in that one.

One thing is for sure though, if Floyd was at welter in that era and took on those guys, he very likely would no longer be undefeated.

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(09-17-2014 05:35 AM)blackbelt2003 Wrote:  Mayweather is not mentally weak, but he does go from being the 'alpha male' in the ring to a 'submissive complainer'. He is very happy to give up trying to be the tough guy as soon as a guy clocks him or roughs him up and instead turn boxer and mover and utterly avoid conflict.

Zab clocked Floyd, roughed him up but Floyd knew he had to walk Zab down to get the win. He complained, but he still moved forward and took the fight to Zab.

Mosley also clocked him good which got Floyd walking him down. And Corley really put him on queer street multiple times in their fight, and Floyd fired up and made him pay for it big time.

Nice breakdowns. I perfectly agree with Forrest, who didn't like pressure. Floyd, however, is not a pressure fighter and would have struggled with Forrest's style just like Mosley did.

I also think Mosley was a far more aggressive combination puncher in his early welterweight days. After the Forrest losses he became gun shy and relied on one big shot...one of which nearly took Floyd out. The younger Mosley would have blitzed him with those ultra-fast combos.


But I also think Quartey's jab would have troubled Floyd. Ike is not an ATG, but he had a hell of a jab, and would have given Floyd fits for the first 6 or 7 rounds. Floyd is a much stronger fight-closer though, and would have taken over in the latter half of the fight.


Black

[BrutalBodyShots]

I actually think Quartey would have dropped Maweather with either a right behind the jab or even a left hook around Mayweather's guard at some point in rounds 3-5. All set up by the jab which as mentioned above would have given Mayweather fits for the first half of the fight. Agreed that Mayweather takes over though in the second half and cruises to a close but clear decision win.

[and the NEW]

(09-24-2014 11:56 AM)blackbelt2003 Wrote:  Floyd, however, is not a pressure fighter and would have struggled with Forrest's style just like Mosley did.

I also think Mosley was a far more aggressive combination puncher in his early welterweight days. After the Forrest losses he became gun shy and relied on one big shot...one of which nearly took Floyd out. The younger Mosley would have blitzed him with those ultra-fast combos.


But I also think Quartey's jab would have troubled Floyd. Ike is not an ATG, but he had a hell of a jab, and would have given Floyd fits for the first 6 or 7 rounds. Floyd is a much stronger fight-closer though, and would have taken over in the latter half of the fight.


Black

I agree on all of that.

Except I'm still not sold that Forrest beats him. Forrest, other than his win over Mosley, never exhibited elite boxing from the outside. And Mosley was nowhere near as difficult to hit as Floyd. I can see Floyd mixing it up, staying way out of distance and getting inside to score shots on the inside before tying up or moving off again, almost as he did to Canelo. Using a lot more counter punching than boxing from the outside or fighting on the inside. If Forrest can't land cleanly or Floyd and Floyd doesn't get rattled like Mosley did, I can't see him outscoring Floyd.

It's definitely a tough style matchup for Floyd though so despite Floyd being a superior fighter, I think it is a pickem.

[Dickagon]

The problem with Floyd's matchups is he's been hand selecting opponents over the years. Canelo wasn't on the level of Forrest and still isn't, he'd have to fight a different fight.

[and the NEW]

(09-25-2014 07:42 AM)gravytrain Wrote:  The problem with Floyd's matchups is he's been hand selecting opponents over the years. Canelo wasn't on the level of Forrest and still isn't, he'd have to fight a different fight.

What makes you think Canelo is not on the level of Forrest?

Lara (who beat Williams, schooled Trout and most likely beat Molina) is on Canelo's resume. As is Trout, who schooled Cotto.

Other than his win over Mosley, Forrest never proved anything at the highest level. In fact, his loss to Mayorga is pretty abysmal given that every single other elite guy stopped Mayorga, and even Corey Spinks outboxed him. Mayorga's win over the shell of Vargas can't even be registered. I agree that the Mosley win is better than any win Canelo has, but you also have to look at the losses.

I don't think Canelo and Forrest are far apart as far as talent. Other than being Mosley's bogeyman, he seemed to always be one cut below the elite guys, as an amateur and a pro. In his defence, he also had a lot of his prime years taken from him by injury.

That said, Forrest does pose a different stylistic matchup given his length. And Canelo played right into Floyds hands by trying to box him, instead of coming to pressure hard the way he did against Lara.

[Dickagon]

Canelo got some help on the cards to beat Lara and Trout. Forrest was the all around better fighter. Canelo is improving but he wasn't on a Forrest level when he fought Floyd, he's green and not even close to being ready for a fight like that. Could Canelo, Floyd or Pac even beat that version of Mayorga? I know Floyd wasn't trying to see Mosley in the ring back then.

[BrutalBodyShots]

I don't think you can gain anything in comparing a mythical Forrest/Mayweather matchup to the Floyd/Canelo fight. Not only does Forrest throw about 50% more jabs per round (about 30 for him to 20 for Canelo) but they are longer jabs from a taller fighter. Forrest has several inches of height and reach on Canelo. Also, Forrest's jab is just better. It would be much more difficult for Floyd to counter Forrest than he did Canelo for those reasons.

[blackbelt2003]

It's the reach that makes it different. Floyd struggles with long reach...look at the De La Hoya fight and the first two or three rounds of the Mosley fight.


Prime DLH and Mosley would have sustained what they did against Mayweather for longer.

And Forrest may or may not be a better fighter than Canelo, but he does present a different set of problems. Stand back and allow Floyd to do what he does and you're giving him a decision, which is what Canelo did.

Forrest vs Mosley, where he dominated centre ring, pumped out the jab and kept the fight long, walking Mosley into his right hand, would not end well for Floyd. A Mayorga type guy would walk through Vernon...but could you ever see Floyd walking down a big, strong, skilled guy like Forrest? Tin-brain Judah, yes. 38yr old, one punch Mosley, yes. Not prime Forrest, for my money, though.



Black




Black

[ViperSniper]

(09-25-2014 08:05 AM)and the NEW Wrote:  

(09-25-2014 07:42 AM)gravytrain Wrote:  The problem with Floyd's matchups is he's been hand selecting opponents over the years. Canelo wasn't on the level of Forrest and still isn't, he'd have to fight a different fight.

What makes you think Canelo is not on the level of Forrest?

Lara (who beat Williams, schooled Trout and most likely beat Molina) is on Canelo's resume. As is Trout, who schooled Cotto.

Other than his win over Mosley, Forrest never proved anything at the highest level. In fact, his loss to Mayorga is pretty abysmal given that every single other elite guy stopped Mayorga, and even Corey Spinks outboxed him. Mayorga's win over the shell of Vargas can't even be registered. I agree that the Mosley win is better than any win Canelo has, but you also have to look at the losses.

I don't think Canelo and Forrest are far apart as far as talent. Other than being Mosley's bogeyman, he seemed to always be one cut below the elite guys, as an amateur and a pro. In his defence, he also had a lot of his prime years taken from him by injury.

That said, Forrest does pose a different stylistic matchup given his length. And Canelo played right into Floyds hands by trying to box him, instead of coming to pressure hard the way he did against Lara.

Well Forrest did prove something on the highest level when he beat Shane Mosley again in the rematch. It's not like Forrest's first victory over Mosley was by some lucky shot. Forrest beat up and outboxed an elite for 12 rounds and then did it again!

As for weather Forrest losing to Mayorga qualifies for being horrible or abysmal, one thing for sure is that it was obviously an upset, yes! I think it was Mayorga's awkwardness and power that troubled Forrest rather than pressure (Vernon finished strong in their rematch by tagging and outboxing). Forrest fought the wrong fight in the first, underestimated a dangerous fighter that noone really knew too much of.

The fact that Forrest didn't beat (or stop) Mayorga shouldn't be a knock as Mayorga was only stopped by bigger guys at 160 & 154. Mayorga was at his best at 147.

Vernon Forrest was an elite fighter that fell short in greatness to his peers. Not because he fell apart everytime he got the opportunity, but because he hardly got the opportunity to compete amongst the elite.