Mosley or Toney - who had the best career?

[JD]

(02-15-2017 08:17 PM)Spyder Wrote:  I would say that he had flashes of brilliance, but couldn't put them together in a complete effort. His fight against Margarito was probably the closest that he got after Forrest.

I thought he held a ton that fight...and then closed his eyes and swung wildly when Margarito just walked to him.

[Dickagon]

I think Mosley looked at his best against DLH in their first fight. And I think Toney looked at his best vs Jirov.

ATN, he moved up to 135 and lost to DLH then didn't do fuck all else til he lost to Mosley. Then he went back down to his natural division. You make it seem like those are his accomplishments at 135. Another problem is you are trying to ignore Mosley doing the same shit at 135 as when he's at 147 and supposed to be past his best.

[blackbelt2003]

So what was Toney's prime?


He himself rates his win over Iran Barkley as his best victory. Not long before that he'd also beaten McCallum in the rematch which was no mean feat.

I'd say that was his prime period....but even then there was the odd dodgy performance, such as his controversial win over Tiberi, or when he was floored and only just edged out Reggie Johnson. LEt's not forget he was way behind vs Michael Nunn, too, before he got the KO.


Black

[the ollie reed fan club]

(02-16-2017 07:53 AM)ViperSniper Wrote:  ATN pretty much went over all of this with you already, just a page ago...post: #158 of this thread..

Yeah dingleberry he did and in the process completely contradicted himself. He first asssserted that Shane did well against the shoulder defence. I said what did he base that on, having a good couple of rounds against Floyd, the most noted exponent of the shoulder defence?

He then went into a detailed analysis of how Floyd's shoulder defence is completely different from Toney's. Well if that is the case then how can he be so sure that Toney's shoulder defence wouldn't cause Shane problems as James executed it in a vastly different way to Floyds?

Reading comprehension really isn't your thing is it?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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(02-16-2017 04:51 PM)blackbelt2003 Wrote:  So what was Toney's prime?


He himself rates his win over Iran Barkley as his best victory. Not long before that he'd also beaten McCallum in the rematch which was no mean feat.

I'd say that was his prime period....but even then there was the odd dodgy performance, such as his controversial win over Tiberi, or when he was floored and only just edged out Reggie Johnson. LEt's not forget he was way behind vs Michael Nunn, too, before he got the KO.


Black

For what it is worth when it comes to mythical match-ups I don't take a guy's prime, I take his very best performance, his very best night as a professional and match it against the other guy's very best night.

For instance when looking at Tyson against other HW's in mythical match-ups I use the Tyson the night against Spinks as my yardstick. say it was against Foreman i would probably take the George that fought Frazier and base my assessment from there.

[Spyder]

(02-16-2017 06:02 PM)the ollie reed fan club Wrote:  For what it is worth when it comes to mythical match-ups I don't take a guy's prime, I take his very best performance, his very best night as a professional and match it against the other guy's very best night.

For instance when looking at Tyson against other HW's in mythical match-ups I use the Tyson the night against Spinks as my yardstick. say it was against Foreman i would probably take the George that fought Frazier and base my assessment from there.

I do the same thing. This is the best that this guy could ever offer.

I also look at fights where they faced adversity, and see what the other fighter did that gave them trouble. Then I see if the mythical opponent had used those tactics in their career and how well they executed them. Then I do the same thing for the opponent. At the end I compile a stylistic match up in my head and try to convey my thought process in a post. All of the calculations take about 5 seconds in my head, but by the time that I post the conclusion in the thread it is infallible.

Sometimes the readers of my analysis don't have the matchmaker vision that I have, and it takes a few posts of me trying to explain it in terms that they can relate too. Other times, the reader is just too stubborn to look past their own preconceived breakdown of the match up, and that's when they refuse to even consider any other opposing viewpoint.

At that point, I am forced to employ guerrilla tactics to brutalize their arguments and make them feel foolish for not seeing it my way. This is either received by their submission to the topic and leaving the thread, or they try to fight fire with fire and get destroyed by my Dr Strange-like abilities. Once in a while I'll get an agree to disagree offer, which I almost always accept out of mercy.

My track record speaks for itself. None of my p4p breakdowns have ever been proven wrong, and therefore are always right. You can rest assured that I have put this fight through my thorough process, and James Toney has come out victorious.

James Toney is my official prediction, and cannot be disputed.

[ViperSniper]

(02-16-2017 06:02 PM)the ollie reed fan club Wrote:  Yeah dingleberry he did and in the process completely contradicted himself. He first asssserted that Shane did well against the shoulder defence. I said what did he base that on, having a good couple of rounds against Floyd, the most noted exponent of the shoulder defence?

He then went into a detailed analysis of how Floyd's shoulder defence is completely different from Toney's. Well if that is the case then how can he be so sure that Toney's shoulder defence wouldn't cause Shane problems as James executed it in a vastly different way to Floyds?

Reading comprehension really isn't your thing is it?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A New Zealander throwing the term "dingleberry" around

You're getting way too caught up on the "shoulder D". But I guess you want ATN to somehow prove his breakdown to a mythical p4p matchup

[Dickagon]

Alright, use that time period as Toney's prime. Is that going to change the fact the Mosley that's getting hyped up on here was doing it at a limited 135 as the biggest, strongest fastest dude there? The dude clearly was physically better than every single opponent he faced there. Then yall want to act like god himself reached into Mosley's soul and stole all of his talent after he hit 147 and was no longer the biggest, strongest fastest dude in a limited division. Or that at 135 he never fought tight or wasn't hittable because he stopped a blown up 130 pounder with no notable wins at 135?

I don't think Toney was ever really dominant but this isn't trying to see who had the best career or debating over who's p4p better. This is a mythical match up.

[and the NEW]

(02-16-2017 07:53 AM)ViperSniper Wrote:  ATN pretty much went over all of this with you already, just a page ago...post: #158 of this thread..

Exactly, my point is that Mosley doesn't have problems with the shoulder roll as some pointed out, where they specifically cited Mayweather as the example, which I clearly debunked. Whether that relates to Toney's use of it is a different matter, which I pointed out. Some idiots think the way Floyd uses his shoulder is the same as the way Eddie Futch taught. Simple minds.

As for those that base a mythical match up on a fighters best night, rather than their prime; how was Tyson who beat Spinks going to fair against Holyfield? I guess he would walk through him, because that's what he does to people on his best night! You can't use one fight. Some guys look great because they fight a guy suited to them. It doesn't mean they had their best night, it means they looked their best, because styles make fights. Another reason why people who make a comparison based on one fight should never be listened to when trying to make a mythical comparison, it is clear they are suffering from fetal alcoholic spectrum disorder.

I'm still waiting to hear how fat James could catch a fast, slick boxer like Mosley, when he had his slow plodding fat crankles boxed off him by Montell fukcin Griffin! LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. 18 pages and still no explanation to this conundrum..........

The truth is, the only thing James can catch is a hamburger coming right at him, kind of like Iran!

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(02-16-2017 04:51 PM)blackbelt2003 Wrote:  He himself rates his win over Iran Barkley as his best victory. Not long before that he'd also beaten McCallum in the rematch which was no mean feat.

A lot of people also think he lost to McCallum. I'm not sure Toney had a prime. He looked great against the right opposition, guys who came at him. He either fought on close terms, or got his ears boxed off against guys who used their feet and had a bit of speed and skill. Also probably explains why Toney never had any amateur success at the highest level. In 5+ years the best he could muster was regional success.

[the ollie reed fan club]

(02-17-2017 04:35 AM)and the NEW Wrote:  Exactly, my point is that Mosley doesn't have problems with the shoulder roll as some pointed out, where they specifically cited Mayweather as the example, which I clearly debunked. Whether that relates to Toney's use of it is a different matter, which I pointed out. Some idiots think the way Floyd uses his shoulder is the same as the way Eddie Futch taught. Simple minds.

As for those that base a mythical match up on a fighters best night, rather than their prime; how was Tyson who beat Spinks going to fair against Holyfield? I guess he would walk through him, because that's what he does to people on his best night! You can't use one fight. Some guys look great because they fight a guy suited to them. It doesn't mean they had their best night, it means they looked their best, because styles make fights. Another reason why people who make a comparison based on one fight should never be listened to when trying to make a mythical comparison, it is clear they are suffering from fetal alcoholic spectrum disorder.

I'm still waiting to hear how fat James could catch a fast, slick boxer like Mosley, when he had his slow plodding fat crankles boxed off him by Montell fukcin Griffin! LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. 18 pages and still no explanation to this conundrum..........

The truth is, the only thing James can catch is a hamburger coming right at him, kind of like Iran!

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A lot of people also think he lost to McCallum. I'm not sure Toney had a prime. He looked great against the right opposition, guys who came at him. He either fought on close terms, or got his ears boxed off against guys who used their feet and had a bit of speed and skill. Also probably explains why Toney never had any amateur success at the highest level. In 5+ years the best he could muster was regional success.

Just feel free to list the fighters that used the shoulder defence like Toney did that Shane faced and had no problem against. Cheers.

[and the NEW]

^^^^^^^^

Good post as usual, thanks for wasting 5 seconds of my day.

Shane never faced a guy who used the shoulder like Toney, so that is a question mark.

Toney faced plenty of world champion level boxer movers (many worse than Shane) and lost to just about all of them.

Nuff said.